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The time alignment issue has been with them 'since the beginning'. The bass panel tends to lag the tweeter panel due to the crossover (fairly simple design and lows lag highs in phase/time). With the tweeters inside and speakers toed in a little you'll get better time alignment between tweeter and bass panels. Frankly, while I've measured better step response with proper toe-in, I have not found it to matter much if any listening to music etc. I have most often found I prefer tweeters in because to me that provides a better, tighter image than having them on the outside. The latter seems to 'spread' the image too much, so vocals and centered solo instruments are too 'big'. Not the 8' violins heard with Bose 901's, but not realistic either. I also found tweeters on the outside led to a 'hole in the middle' effect for upper midrange on up, again something I really don't like. The times I have had 'tweeters out' and it worked OK were in very large rooms so they were spread pretty far apart (maybe 15' or more) and far from the MLP (ditto, 15' or more). Or they were so close that I had to put them outside to gain better stereo separation. Neither is ideal in my mind and smack of a mismatch in room/MLP.
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886
Very interesting discussion on the magnepan users group FB page concerning toe-in. Several are saying to make sure the tweeter is behind the bass part of the panel. Interesting.
'Jim Weir Joppe Peelen yes that’s with their crossover time alignment on an equilateral triangle layout is 15 degrees tweeters out, 45 degrees tweeters in. At 45 degrees the plane wave crosses in front of your head, that is what locks in the center image. Even my off axis seats get a center image.'
'The article quoted Diller who said tweeter in or out, just make sure it is behind the bass panel'
'Jim Weir Joppe Peelen yes that’s with their crossover time alignment on an equilateral triangle layout is 15 degrees tweeters out, 45 degrees tweeters in. At 45 degrees the plane wave crosses in front of your head, that is what locks in the center image. Even my off axis seats get a center image.'
'The article quoted Diller who said tweeter in or out, just make sure it is behind the bass panel'
magnepan users group FB page concerning toe-in
Link please..thanks!
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Originally Posted by torii
when I had tweeters on outside my setup was tweeters exactly 1 inch behind bass. now that I am trying tweeters inside I am having tweeters exactly even with bass. today will try harder to get that one inch behind bass.
torii,
I don't quite understand how to get more precise alignment that results in 1' difference between tweeter and bass. I'm really a newbie at this.
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Originally Posted by sgibson
torii,
I don't quite understand how to get more precise alignment that results in 1' difference between tweeter and bass. I'm really a newbie at this.
I don't quite understand how to get more precise alignment that results in 1' difference between tweeter and bass. I'm really a newbie at this.
I used the laser from my mlp to measure distance to tweeter and bass panel. the degree of toe in should allow for the tweeter to be closest.
edit tweeter to be farthest away.
Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
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Originally Posted by sgibson
magnepan users group FB page concerning toe-in
Link please..thanks!
I can't find a link other than to the users groupLink please..thanks!
https://www.facebook.com/groups/37628803025/
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Originally Posted by torii
I used the laser from my mlp to measure distance to tweeter and bass panel. the degree of toe in should allow for the tweeter to be closest.
Thanks torii!Next question, should I aim for thr spot where the Tweeter edge meets the bass panel, or center of Tweeter ribbon, then center of Bass panel?
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Originally Posted by sgibson
Thanks torii!
Next question, should I aim for thr spot where the Tweeter edge meets the bass panel, or center of Tweeter ribbon, then center of Bass panel?
That's a good question. I'd aim for the middle of the panel. Next question, should I aim for thr spot where the Tweeter edge meets the bass panel, or center of Tweeter ribbon, then center of Bass panel?
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886
I can't find a link other than to the users group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/37628803025/
Thanks Scotth3886,https://www.facebook.com/groups/37628803025/
But..not a facebook member.
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I was reading the stereophile review and the reviewer said lrs measured 80db sensitivity..with max around 93db thats about what I get. and his mlp/setup was very close to what I have them set at. spooky, I was close..makes me think I am on right track lol.
Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886
That's a good question. I'd aim for the middle of the panel.
Using the Laser Measure I moved LRSs and got this result-Both Tweeters InLeft Panel MLP to Tweeter=8'-7 1/16'
Left Panel to Bass (Center of Panel)=8'-7 10/16'
Right Panel MLP to Tweeter=8'-7 3/8'
Right Panel to Bass (Center of Panel)=8'-8 1/4'
Haven't tried any Music yet ,but is this close enough?
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Originally Posted by torii
I was reading the stereophile review and the reviewer said lrs measured 80db sensitivity..with max around 93db thats about what I get. and his mlp/setup was very close to what I have them set at. spooky, I was close..makes me think I am on right track lol.
Being a dipole makes that measurement of just the front side of the panel a little misleading
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Originally Posted by sgibson
Using the Laser Measure I moved LRSs and got this result-Both Tweeters In
Left Panel MLP to Tweeter=8'-7 1/16'
Left Panel to Bass (Center of Panel)=8'-7 10/16'
Right Panel MLP to Tweeter=8'-7 3/8'
Right Panel to Bass (Center of Panel)=8'-8 1/4'
Haven't tried any Music yet ,but is this close enough?
Left Panel MLP to Tweeter=8'-7 1/16'
Left Panel to Bass (Center of Panel)=8'-7 10/16'
Right Panel MLP to Tweeter=8'-7 3/8'
Right Panel to Bass (Center of Panel)=8'-8 1/4'
Haven't tried any Music yet ,but is this close enough?
i made a mistake, tweeter should be farther away than bass panel.
Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886
Being a dipole makes that measurement of just the front side of the panel a little misleading
having dipoles makes for the entire measuring process complicated with rew imo. I can see daysweeks being spent to achieve best rew measurements. makes me think measurements not that important as the lrs sound great to me.
Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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Originally Posted by torii
I was reading the stereophile review and the reviewer said lrs measured 80db sensitivity..with max around 93db thats about what I get. and his mlp/setup was very close to what I have them set at. spooky, I was close..makes me think I am on right track lol.
A: B: I'd rather they'd break 100 db, but I can probably live with that.
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Originally Posted by drh3b
A:
B: I'd rather they'd break 100 db, but I can probably live with that.
Hopefully order them this week, with expected delivery by Christmas... 2022.
B: I'd rather they'd break 100 db, but I can probably live with that.
Hopefully order them this week, with expected delivery by Christmas... 2022.
I think I pushed mylrs to 96db for 10 minutes or so but they start losing their sweet sound with bit of edginess. they jam with my subs at 88-92 db. dont want to risk having to deal with magnepan customer service ever again
Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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Originally Posted by torii
i made a mistake, tweeter should be farther away than bass panel.
I still haven't had the freaking time yet to mess with them.
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Originally Posted by drh3b
A:
B: I'd rather they'd break 100 db, but I can probably live with that.
Hopefully order them this week, with expected delivery by Christmas... 2022.
B: I'd rather they'd break 100 db, but I can probably live with that.
Hopefully order them this week, with expected delivery by Christmas... 2022.
I think these are more enjoyable at a quieter level than my cones and domes are 10db louder. And besides, too much louder up here and then I'm concerned neighbors can hear.
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Originally Posted by torii
i made a mistake, tweeter should be farther away than bass panel.
Thanks torii,Will adjust accordingly.
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Originally Posted by torii
i made a mistake, tweeter should be farther away than bass panel.
Right you are torii,The Picture at AXPONA 2019 and Magnepan .7 Manual confirms this.
From Magnepan .7 Manual
https://www.magnepan.com/pdfs/manual/MG-.7.pdf
Tweeters on the inside will give a precise image for a single listener. For a
large 'sweet spot' and multiple listeners, place tweeters on the outside.
Especially for tweeters on the inside, the speakers must be angled sufficiently inward as shown in the diagrams below so that the tweeter is not ahead in time. Whether the tweeter is on the inside or outside, the tweeter should not be closer to the listener than the bass section. Measuring from your seated position, if
the bass panel is 10 feet, 6 inches, the tweeter should be at least 10 feet, 7
inches (think in distance, not angles).
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I am playing around with spl on lrs. this song which is upbeat: https://tidal.com/track/47696789 on my marantz avr at -8.5 and speaker levels -11 plays consistent 90-95db at my mlp. my avr has a lot more to give but I think thats loud enough. its nice to know my amps bridged can handle these..ofc they could handle the focals that dip down into 2 ohms and ofc I have subs on w/80hz xover. anyways I think again 90-95db is tops, they might go louder but my system either will blow them or distort em I think. I like these LRS more around 92db tops I think. on the other end, at 60db, they sound fantastic also..I dont usually listen louder than -10 on my avr except with classical music recordings.
Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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I just measured them with the laser measure. The way I had them positioned by ear, the tweeter was ever so slightly further away than the bass panel. I didn't mess with them, but just left them where I placed them.
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886
I just measured them with the laser measure. The way I had them positioned by ear, the tweeter was ever so slightly further away than the bass panel. I didn't mess with them, but just left them where I placed them.
you know your stuff. Im finding these lrs arent outrageously picky. I am looking forward to trying them positioned in front of the short wall in my space. is there such a thing as having them too far out in room..like 15-20 ft out?
Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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Originally Posted by torii
you know your stuff. Im finding these lrs arent outrageously picky. I am looking forward to trying them positioned in front of the short wall in my space. is there such a thing as having them too far out in room..like 15-20 ft
out?
No, these are nowhere near as problematic as the ESLs were to get them right. out?
I tried fooling around and turning the sound stage 90 degrees so they facing the dining room and talk about big spacious imaging, but harder to get the bass right. I'd have to fool around a while to optimize.
I used to do dipoles set up as dividers between LR and kitchen / dining room space and had great imaging on both sides (flat panel only). Overall, I much prefer these nearfield regardless of room size.
edit: make sure you're not at 25% or 50% point out into the room as that's a big ass null that you won't cure. 40% or 60% is fine and then noodle back and forth and in and out to get your bass back.
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886
No, these are nowhere near as problematic as the ESLs were to get them right.
I tried fooling around and turning the sound stage 90 degrees so they facing the dining room and talk about big spacious imaging, but harder to get the bass right. I'd have to fool around a while to optimize.
I used to do dipoles set up as dividers between LR and kitchen / dining room space and had great imaging on both sides (flat panel only). Overall, I much prefer these nearfield regardless of room size.
edit: make sure you're not at 25% or 50% point out into the room as that's a big ass null that you won't cure. 40% or 60% is fine and then noodle back and forth and in and out to get your bass back.
I tried fooling around and turning the sound stage 90 degrees so they facing the dining room and talk about big spacious imaging, but harder to get the bass right. I'd have to fool around a while to optimize.
I used to do dipoles set up as dividers between LR and kitchen / dining room space and had great imaging on both sides (flat panel only). Overall, I much prefer these nearfield regardless of room size.
edit: make sure you're not at 25% or 50% point out into the room as that's a big ass null that you won't cure. 40% or 60% is fine and then noodle back and forth and in and out to get your bass back.
Scotth3886
The LRSs placement in my nearfield listening area at 4.75' from back wall works out to about 62%. Is that a big ass null? What frequencies are affected by the null? I used to fix these things with a stereo equalizer..way back when
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Originally Posted by sgibson
Scotth3886
The LRSs placement in my nearfield listening area at 4.75' from back wall works out to about 62%. Is that a big ass null? What frequencies are affected by the null? I used to fix these things with a stereo equalizer..way back when
The LRSs placement in my nearfield listening area at 4.75' from back wall works out to about 62%. Is that a big ass null? What frequencies are affected by the null? I used to fix these things with a stereo equalizer..way back when
There are a bunch of room calculators online. When you below Schroeder, its pure math to figure out where you need to be for bass. 62% should be fine to miss mots if the major bass nulls. I mean frankly, you never do completely as there's always something everywhere in your room that will cause some degree of difficulty.
Below are a few that might help
https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc
http://noaudiophile.com/speakercalc/
https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotest..calization.php
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886
There are a bunch of room calculators online. When you below Schroeder, its pure math to figure out where you need to be for bass. 62% should be fine to miss mots if the major bass nulls. I mean frankly, you never do completely as there's always something everywhere in your room that will cause some degree of difficulty.
Below are a few that might help
https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc
http://noaudiophile.com/speakercalc/
https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotest..calization.php
Many thanks Scotth3886 Below are a few that might help
https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc
http://noaudiophile.com/speakercalc/
https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotest..calization.php
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I have slowly been going thru this playlist by B&W with the lrs..with my focals I cant recall any issues..with the lrs I have found quite a few annoying songs. https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/ab..a-c24fa8e6c521
the johnny cash song has a guitar that plays same material out of both channels same time while johnny's guitar played in space with his vocals..it drives me nuts hearing that other guitar out of left and right speakers..guess this is mono recording? i dont know..does anyone else hear what Im describing? https://tidal.com/browse/track/3291411
the johnny cash song has a guitar that plays same material out of both channels same time while johnny's guitar played in space with his vocals..it drives me nuts hearing that other guitar out of left and right speakers..guess this is mono recording? i dont know..does anyone else hear what Im describing? https://tidal.com/browse/track/3291411
Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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scott you have any specific tracks that emphasize overhead or behind ya from 2 channel? only track I remember from behind was from the fugees but forget..I hear the stuff many times, just dont know the maker of the music lol.
the fugees song was demo'd to me in my house by the installer so I remember that from dealer demonstration in my home with my focals.
the fugees song was demo'd to me in my house by the installer so I remember that from dealer demonstration in my home with my focals.
Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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here is a classic probably with hundreds of variations..just search porgy and bess..this one my fav tho https://tidal.com/browse/album/5162367
Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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and this song is spooky good..in my brain I can hear his head while singing going forward/bark..or my oxycodone doing more than normal..https://tidal.com/browse/album/29113104
Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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